Dr. Fleiss and Dr. Hodges: Circumcision and Christianity (from their book, What Your Doctor May Not Tell You About Circumcision)
WholeChristian.org [Gathering of resources by/for Christian families]
Biblical Circumcision Information
Circumcision and the Christian Parent
Circumcision and Christianity: A Call to Christian Action
The Truth About Circumcision Within Christianity
Circumcision in Antiquity
My Biblical Journey to Intactivism
Christians and Infant Circumcision: Where Should I Stand?
What the Bible Really Says About Circumcision
Christians: Baptism, Not Circumcision
CIRP: Answers from the Bible
Whole Christian Network [Public page]
Whole Christian Network Group [Private group - Christians only please - not a religious debate group]
CUT: Slicing Through the Myths of Circumcision (Jewish commentary on the absence of circumcision among Christians throughout human history): CUT Website
Video documenting various places in the Bible where circumcision is discussed.
Especially for Catholic Parents:
Fish Eaters (Catholicism and circumcision)
History of Circumcision (CIRP)
Circumcision: Then and Now (CIRP)
Especially for Latter Day Saints Parents:
Book of Mormon on Circumcision
Intact Mormon Network [Facebook Community Page]
Verses on the subject:
"For you created my inmost being. You knit me together in my mother's womb. I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Your works are wonderful, I know this full well." -Psalm 139:13-14
"But in fact, God has arranged the parts of the body, every one of them, just as he wants them to be." -1 Cor 12:18
"Behold, I, Paul, tell you that if you be circumcised, Christ will be of no advantage to you." -Gal 5:2
"And I testify again to every male who receives circumcision, that he is in debt to keep the whole Law. You who do so have been severed from Christ...you have fallen from grace." -Gal 5:3
"For when we place our faith in Christ Jesus, it makes no difference to God whether we are circumcised or not circumcised. What is important is faith expressing itself in love." -Gal 5:6
"But if I still proclaim circumcision...then the stumbling block of the cross has been abolished." -Gal 5:11
"I wish that those who are pushing you to do so would mutilate themselves!" -Gal 5:12
"And even those who advocate circumcision don’t really keep the whole law. They only want you to be circumcised so they can brag about it and claim you as their disciples." -Gal 6:13
"For neither circumcision nor uncircumcision matters. Rather, what matters is being a new creation." -Gal 6:15
"For there are many who rebel against right teaching; they engage in useless talk and deceive people. This is especially true of those who insist on circumcision for salvation. They must be silenced. By their wrong teaching, they have already turned whole families away from the truth. Such teachers only want your money" -Titus 1:10-11
"Watch out for those wicked men – dangerous dogs, I call them – who say you must be circumcised. Beware of the evil doers. Beware of the mutilation. For it isn’t the cutting of our bodies that makes us children of God; it is worshiping him with our spirits." -Phil 3:2-3
"But each of you should remain in the place in life that the Lord has given you. Stay as you were when God chose you. Was a man already circumcised [Old Covenant] when God chose him? Then he should not become uncircumcised. Was he uncircumcised [New Covenant] when God chose him? Then he should not be circumcised. Being circumcised means nothing. Being uncircumcised means nothing. Doing what God commands is what counts." -1 Cor. 7:17-19
"Certain people came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching, saying, 'Moses commanded you to be circumcised. If you aren't, you can't be saved.' But Paul and Barnabas didn't agree with this, argued strongly with them, and were appointed to go up to Jerusalem with other believers chosen to go with them. The apostles and elders met together to consider this question. [...] Peter got up and spoke to them, 'Brothers, you know that some time ago God chose me to take the good news to unbelievers. He wanted them to hear the good news and believe. God knows the human heart. [...] Now then, why are you trying to test God? You test him when you put a heavy load on the believers' shoulders [regarding circumcision]. Our people of long ago couldn't carry that load. We can't either." -Acts 15:1-2, 6-10
"Have nothing to do with godless myths and old wives’ tales; rather, train yourself to be godly." -1 Tim 4:7
Above informational cards available at Saving Our Sons or the Whole Christian Network
Tshirt from Made By Momma's Intact Advocacy Collection
Related Georgetown University Lecture:
Resources (books, websites, and articles) on the prepuce organ (foreskin), intact care and circumcision are cataloged at: Should I Circumcise? The Pros and Cons of Infant Circumcision
Information Packs to Share
Our son, kept intact and whole as God created him,
gazes upon that same cross at 7 months old
gazes upon that same cross at 7 months old
So good--people need to be educated. I'm so glad I found out what the foreskin actually is/does before I made the decision for my son. I'm so glad I left him natural.ReplyDelete
Also, it seems to me like many Christians have a positive association with circumcision because it's in the Bible. They may realize it's no longer necessary, and yet they find it hard to think of it as negative. What they don't realize is that only the tip of the foreskin was removed in the OT. Not the whole foreskin! Thanks for helping to educate people.
I think Paul got it right in his letter to the Galatians:ReplyDelete
NLT: "I only wish that those troublemakers who want to mutilate you by circumcision would mutilate [or castrate] themselves."
MSG: "Why don't these agitators, obsessive as they are about circumcision, go all the way and castrate themselves!"
Galatians 5:12 See http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Gal&chapter=5&verse=12
NLT: New Living Translation
MSG: The Message: The Bible in Contemporary Language
Thanks for linking to the Intactivism Pages. There is a page about Christianity and circumcision, and some pertinent statements from particular churches, notably the RC church.ReplyDelete
Surely the only decision made by parents is to circumcise their sons. Uncircumcised is the default condition, and requires no "decision" at all.ReplyDelete
From a Christian perspective, now that we are living in New Testament times, circumcision or uncircumcision does not have any relevance to one's faith. The choice is purely a matter of physical reasons.ReplyDelete
You make a lot of good points and have a lot of interesting things to think about. My husband and I never had to make a decision about circumcision, because so far we've only had daughters. I truly don't know what we would do. We were sort of relieved with each of our babies to learn that they were girls! :)
If the day comes when we have a son, I don't know what we'll decide, but I do know that our decision won't be based on any religious reasons. As Galatians 5:6 says, "For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love."
Thanks for all of your thought-provoking research and links!
Actually, Emily, you are wrong.ReplyDelete
Circumcision was originally just a small slit in the tip of the foreskin done to shed a drop or two of blood. As I'm assuming you know, back in the Old Testament times, the payment or atonement for sin was bloodshed.
When Jesus Christ came and died on the cross, He shed his blood for our sins, ultimately paying that price for all of us.
To continue to circumcise your children as a Christian is a direct rejection of that sacrifice. It's basically telling God that His sacrifice wasn't good enough for you.
P.S. http://www.udonet.com/circumcision/christian.html is a great resource.ReplyDelete
Alex you couldn't be more correct Paul actually states that if you circumcise you are a debter to the WHOLE (jewish) law. So He tells us that You might as well go be Jewish because we Christians don't do that. We Christians are "The Uncircumcision"ReplyDelete
"But within the context of living out an authentic, Christian life, to then CHOOSE circumcision is to deliberately deny Christ."
I have to disagree with you on that statement; it's a bit overblown to say circumcising your son as a Christian is "denying Christ". Come on now...
If I could go back and do it all over again, I probably wouldn't have circumcised my son. I was a Christian and did realize that circumcision wasn't a requirement for being saved. However, I was lead to believe that a male being circumcised was better for his health, hygiene, and self-esteem. Now, I know better so I wouldn't make that choice again, but I wouldn't go so far as to say someone who makes that choice is "denying Christ". I know, love, and cherish my Savior and what He did for me. What He actually said is that it wasn't about circumcision OR uncircumcision.
As a Christian i find what the NT has to say on the subject to be very confusing. Especially what Paul says and his actions towards circumcision. He says it's not needed and says to practice it is to turn from Christ. But, he caves and circumcises Timothy so it wont cause problems when he tries to minister to people. It's conflicting...if he truly believes performing it turns you away from Christ why would he cave and accept that Timothy should be circumcised to help pave the way to ministry? I'm 6mo pregnant with a boy right now. Originally it was no question between my husband and i that we would choose to circumcise. I was ignorant on what the Bible actually says about it, but knowing now that it isn't necessary i'm not so torn about it. My husband i think has different reasons for wanting to circumcise as he is himself, and sees absolutely nothing wrong with it. I have a problem believing that performing it is rejecting Christ's sacrifice for us. So i have to respectfully disagree with those of you who follow that belief. Christ himself said that it isn't a necessary procedure anymore but to let those remain as they are when they are called to him. circ'd or not, it makes not difference to him, as long as they love him and do good in His name (keeping the commandments).ReplyDelete
First of all, hello! I am so happy to hear that you are exploring the idea of keeping your son intact. For many reasons, he will thank you for it later and I commend you for being strong enough to question circumcision for the sake of your little one. :)
When it comes to Christianity, there is absolutely no religious obligation to circumcise, and it is in fact advised against. Circumcision, along with a host of other rituals, was a part of the Old Covenant that the Jews shared with God. This covenant was broken with the ultimate sacrifice, Jesus Christ. With the death of Christ, the debt of man's sin to God was completely repaid, thus making the rituals of the Old Covenant obsolete (including circumcision). The Bible even shows us the Old Covenant being broken in Mark 15:38, when the veil in the temple is torn in half. As Christians, we believe that the ONLY thing that sanctifies us in the eyes of God is our acceptance of Jesus Christ and His sacrifice as our salvation. What Paul and other New Testament figures meant when they said that to circumcise was to reject Christ's sacrifice was basically that performing the obsolete rituals of the Old Testament was an outward act of saying that we still need those rituals in order to be right with God. This is not true. There is no ritual, no human act that can ever pay for our sin apart from accepting Christ. In performing ritual behaviors in the name of God (eg, circumcision), one basically outwardly claims that the sacrifice of Jesus was not enough, and that we still need these rituals. Just as Christians would find it absurd to sacrifice a lamb during Passover in the name of God in this day and age, circumcision in the name of God is equally as absurd. The only thing you need to worry about in regard to religion when it comes to your precious little one is to teach him the love of Christ! Consider this. Say you circumcise him in the name of God, and one day he grows to resent the fact that he is circumcised. Don't you think that may lead to him resenting God as well? It's not a risk I would like to take.
When it comes to Timothy being circumcised, we must remember the context of the early Christian church. The earliest leaders of Christianity preached primarily to Jews, as they were the ones to whom Christ was promised as the Messiah. Jews of the time were very much wary of Gentiles, and were most likely not willing to speak to someone without a Jewish background of some form. Unfortunately, this is probably why Timothy was circumcised. In order to further his ministry, he felt this was necessary in order to connect with the Jewish population. Your little guy will not have this same problem! Furthermore, Timothy was a consenting adult who chose circumcision consciously and voluntarily. Circumcising a baby is in no way the same, as babies cannot consent! When Christ said that it didn't matter to Him if people came to Him circumcised or not, he was saying that anyone could come to Him despite their current state of being, and didn't need to worry about changing the state of their privates in order to know Him. That didn't give us free reign to continue to circumcise!!!
I hope that this has been a help to you. Remember that first and formost, our job as Christians is to spread love in the name of God not pain and suffering in the name of God. Please continue to question this practice. There are a host of other reasons to reject circumcision, not just religious reasons! Congratulations on your little one! I wish you all the best.
We can first take into consideration that Timothy was a grown man. He and Paul made that decision together. A baby isn't capable of making that kind of decision. Given that Paul's personality is very apparent through out the New Testament, it's safe to assume that they probably prayed and gave it much consideration.Delete
In those days there was a lot of people that believed you couldn't be saved without being circumcised. Circumcising Timothy made it easier for them to concentrate on the real goal, ministering salvation and the gospel.
In Acts 15 there were some men preaching to others that you cannot be saved without circumcision. Paul and Barnabas got into a dispute with them, so they traveled all the way to Jerusalem to consult with the elders and other disciples.
"After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them." Acts 15:6
I think the key word is *much* here. They took this into serious consideration. They didn't brush it off. I think just by this little word it's probable that they felt like circumcision wasn't a grey area or 'do whatever you want' type of thing. It matters.
Paul says to them "Why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as we are." Acts 15:6-10 NIV
I think this is huge. "Neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear" This was a heavy burden on them and Paul wasn't the only one, he was speaking for himself, his fellow men AND their ancestors. It's safe to say they did not *like* circumcision.
It sounds as though you might be familiar about Paul's stance, but in case anybody else isn't, he later writes in different books calling the circumcisers mutilators and dogs. For people who pressured others to become circumcised he says "I wish they would go all the way and emasculate themselves." Other versions might say mutilate or castrate. He hated circumcision.
I don't think circumcising your son would mean you are 'rejecting Christ's sacrifice for us' in your words... But I do believe that God makes it very clear in the Bible that we are fearfully and wonderfully made, he knitted us in the womb. he designed the foreskin, as we designed our hair, our eyes, our hearts. Cutting it away is rejecting his design.
"let those remain as they are when they are called to him, circ'd or not" Your baby is called into the world by Christ, his life is given to him by Jesus, not by your body alone because he created your body too. Your baby belongs to Jesus but just put into your care. Since foreskin amputation isn't necessary, and that your baby belongs to Jesus the decision is not for the parents to make. It's a decision for God to make. He's already made that decision by creation of the foreskin. He's already decided for you. When your baby grows to be a man, he can choose whether or not he wants to change his body.
I really hope this makes sense, I prayed before I sent the message that it would reach you in a positive way and in a way that would click. You can click on my blog for more information on circumcision.
In the mean time, please watch this video of this baby being circumcised. You should be aware of what you're considering. Keep in touch, let us know your thoughts.
The thing is, Timothy was a Jew. If you are a Messianic Jew, then maybe that's something to consider. Paul said he was willing to be all things to all people for the sake of the gospel (1 Cor 9:19), and presumably Timothy was right there with him as a consenting adult. Other Jews at the time would not be willing to listen to an uncircumcised Jew and so, for the sake of the spread of the gospel, Timothy was circumcised. But Paul speaks very clearly against Gentile circumcision (the Galatian church was primarily Gentile, and were being told by the Judaizers that they could not be saved unless they first followed Judaic law).Delete
If it is neither necessary for salvation nor spiritually beneficial, and is not medically beneficial either, why would you put your son through an unnecessary and painful surgery fraught with complications (many of which are not apparent until sexual maturity, and thus get completely ignored)? Global Survey of Circumcision Harm
Another thing to consider is that Biblical circumcision was the removal of the tip of the foreskin (leaving the glans covered and retaining penile sensitivity), not the tearing away of the skin from the glans and removal of 30-50% of the penile skin. This harsher and much more damaging practice was instigated around the second century AD to prevent Hellenistic Jews from stretching their foreskins to hide the fact of their circumcision. I still wouldn't do it to my son, but it helps to know it was much less damaging and traumatic. This practice was the exclusive domain of the Jews until its introduction to North America in the 1800's as a means to reduce sexual function and desire.
No, it makes no difference to Christ in what state you were at the time of your calling. But now that you are in Him, you are freed from the blood covenant by His blood, so there is no need to impose it on your child. You are now responsible for what you know, and since you are on drmomma, you know that it is not necessary and it is harmful.
I hope I don't sound too harsh. I'm not judging you personally, but I feel really strongly on the subject and it breaks my heart that well-meaning Christians are still doing this to their sons. I pray God blesses you and your family as you seek His will for your son, and I pray that your husband opens his heart and his eyes to consider a different path.
Hi! Keep reading! I am a Christian, and have two circumcised sons, and one intact. Circumcising my first two is my biggest regret. Paul is VERY adamant AGAINST circumcision. (And he did NOT have Titus circumcised). Paul talks about being all things to all people, so when he addressed the Jews (you are not Jewish, so this does not apply to you), he tried to be respectful of their traditions in order that they might not get caught up in what he wasn't doing, and would still hear the message of Christ. However, with the Gentiles, he preached to NOT circumcise, as circumcising takes away from the work that Christ did on the cross, and attempts to "add to", which we are told emphatically NOT to do. Also, if you research how circumcision was done in Bible times, it was COMPLETELY different than modern day medical circumcision. If circumcision had been performed in Bible times as it is today, people would have bled to death. What was done to Timothy (and others) is in no way comparable to what would be done to your little boy. If you'd like to chat more, feel free to email me. email@example.com. I'd be happy to share with you more links and info!ReplyDelete
Think about it this way - Paul had to work within the parameters of the culture and time when he was alive. Since everyone was used to circumcising for God, it could have been a stumbling block for many people to suddenly hear "oh wait, you don't have to do this any more." By making the people more comfortable with who they were talking to, they might have been made more accepting of Jesus. It was a cultural thing.
Today, Christian people no longer see circumcision as necessary to salvation, they (mistakenly) do it only for health reasons. So just compare the culture then to the culture now. God does not require circumcision of us today, but back when it was the thing to do, it would have made the people more accepting of Jesus' messenger.
There are several women ministers who still teach that all males should be circumcised. Reverend Cheryl Schatz strongly belives that the foreskin is sin and should be removed. And No, she is not Jewish.ReplyDelete
I am really hurt by the fact I circumcised my son. I was alone on my own and the nurses kept coming in asking me if were going to. My neighbor told me not to, and I wanted to listen, but I was not sure what was right or wrong and alone on this. I asked his father and he was not helpful. I only knew of it. Had I known I should have studied this before his birth I think things would have been much diff. I would have never allowed circumcision. I feel horrible for this! I think it takes support to make these decisions or education. I feel horrible for allowing this procedure to be done to my son. And the bible verses I read up there does not help me feel better at all. In fact I feel I have failed my son for allowing it. Is there anything to help bring peace to those? My son and I cannot help that this has already been done, and we both were victims of pressure and lack of correct education. Please, if you have time respond. Thanks. firstname.lastname@example.orgReplyDelete
Hi Brittny, I felt so sad for you reading your post. I hope that you've managed to find some peace since you posted it. You are being so hard on yourself, and it sounds as though you're suffering a great deal over it. While you regret what has happened, the reality is that all parents make mistakes, and that your son will be absolutely fine. I think you're exactly right, that parents need support and information, and these are often not available to new parents who find themselves under pressure to circumcise their children. I think you need to find a way to forgive yourself if it's become a difficult issue for you to get past. Perhaps discussing it with a skilled counsellor may help. You might like to look into lodging an official complaint or investigation with the hospital into why you weren't given the necessary information and support to make an informed decision. Sometimes this helps to bring some closure as well as potential improvements to the way that things are done. Maybe you can think about other ways your experience might bring about some good in this area. Sharing your experience on social media, writing to medical authorities, contributing your point of view in support of those who are trying to raise awareness of these issues. It is clear to me from reading your post that you are a kind and responsive mother and I believe that your son is blessed to have you. You can more than make this up to him by parenting him gently, establishing a trusting relationship and helping him to learn that the world is a safe place and that he is treasured. xxDelete
"that your son will be absolutely fine"Delete
except he wont. he cant. he can never have a satisfying sex life. his penis will never function normally, it will merely do the job just barely good enough. if he ever reads up on this he will see a great horror has been done thus emotionally scarring him. if hes at all like me hes look at his penis and wondered why it looks sick for years and years. his sensitivity will forever be duller than it should be. he will have a nasty scar.
no he wont be fine. he cant be. hes not a full man as his sex organ has been mutilated.
its like having a foot that is missing a toe....sure the foot is usable but the foot isnt fine and will forever be a source of aches and pains.
truthly you should feel terrible. your son should be angry. yes Christ can heal these wounds but there should be a fair amount of anger and guilt after all you did essentially take precious baby boy and half way castrate him. Im not exactly sure why the person who replied thinks you shouldnt feel bad because you should. after youve felt terrible then yes heal the wound but there should be a fair amount of grieving.
Wow adam, harsh much! Or did you not read Brittany's post and hear the remorse in her words. Sounds like maybe you need to start at the source of your bitterness and possibly forgive your own parents for doing the same to you as an infant?Delete
As for brittny so you made a mistake all you can do now is treasure your son and explain it to him someday, ask forgiveness and tell him that above all else he is loved and always will be. Not right to live in regret. Be an advocate speak out! Help pregnant moms make this decision by helping educate them. Don't let your regret hangaround your neck like a weight. Love that boy and reach out to others. And ddon't listen to Adam, he needs a therapist.
Hi there, we are from Germany and expecting a son. Here (at least in the mostly Christian or atheist part of society) it is not even discussed whether or not to circumcise our sons. They stay intact if there is no medical indication....ReplyDelete
If we are born perfect thn why our appendix has to be removed at one point.ReplyDelete
The majority of mammals never have their appendix removed... and you must be a touch behind on the literature about this *purposeful* organ as well - http://www.drmomma.org/2009/08/appendix-useful-and-in-fact-promising.htmlDelete
It turns out with research the appendix serves a important role in the immune system. Just like with research the foreskin protects the glans from external environments, infection, chaffing, increases sensitivity and more. Any information in support of circumcision is usually led by jewish researchers or someone with a agenda.Delete
to the last Anon - thankfully there are also a LOT of Jewish physicians, researchers, parents, etc., also standing up to say that boys born into Judaism are also deserving of their full and complete genitals...Delete
Check out the new organization Little Images (https://www.facebook.com/littleimgs OR littleimages.org)
Thoughtful and thorough information from a Christian perspective.
I was violated by my parents at birth without my consent. My foreskin was removed and every erection results to pain due to over tightening of skin. I am not religious I did not choose this. I am stuck with this. I think it is the individuals choice over there own body. Men suffer in silence they dont know any better and are conditioned to. Lobbyists, religious, ignorant and feminst groups want the side effects of mgm hidden.ReplyDelete
Not always feminists... I am a feminist to the core and it is *because* of these feminist principles that I strongly hold to the belief that all human beings are created equal, and with an equally deserving right to be granted the basic human rights we all should hold - such as genital autonomy, and others. :)Delete
Sadly everyone wants a little control over the average man. What better way than to maim his genitals. Brutal.Delete